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Post by Dinosaur454 (Dennis) on Jul 17, 2009 3:40:33 GMT -5
HAT I believe stands for Hunters Anglers & Trappers. Don't know much about the group. We need to get a list of tribs that have not been treated and start pushing for total treatment of ALL tribs on our side of the lake. Just my 2 cents worth. ;D
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Post by Raz on Jul 17, 2009 5:29:21 GMT -5
... I hope the permit is granted. RD I'm 100% confident it will be granted. I can't think of a time when the permit(s) were applied for, and not approved. This was a required, standard, informal, informational public meeting.
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Post by buckshot (Ben) on Jul 17, 2009 6:00:57 GMT -5
The only thing that concernes me with our treatments is the low level of the chemical that they use compared to the great lakes and how often they treat. In Ontario if need be they will treate a few years in a row, they will also put chemical derrectly into the lake as lamprey will spawn on delta's. Also having the treatment at a much higher rate does a much better job. The treatment level Vermont uses is the lowest level that is even usable to kill a lampey. They wanted to do a lower level but the feds told them that it wasn't worth even doing at a lower level and they wert going to waste there time. I think it is 11 and most states treat at 20 or more. I am not sure if that is a percent or what just the number I have read. We cater to the anti's way to much in this state. Many states don' t mess around with commorants or lamprey they just kill them. In lake ontario they are shooting for 5 hits in 100. We are shooting for 25 hits in 100 I wonder why ours is so different. I admit I am not and expert on the subject but I am always learning If my info is incorect please set me straite. I hope to see many more reports of lamprey treatements for the future. Has anyone seen a long term schedule? Thanks Gentlemen for representing the fishing comunity at the meeting. Ben
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Post by Thorny (Rob) on Jul 17, 2009 6:17:38 GMT -5
Frank Stanley was there representing support for the program for Vermont Traditionns Coalition. He is always at the meetings and very supportive. There was nobody representing the LCI that I know of or that made comment. Rich Greenough is normally there representing HAT. He did not make it last night. Any one who wants to submit written comment can do so until 7/27/09.
Buckshot Lamprey are in the larvel stage in the streams for 3 to 4 years. They then move into the lake and eat fish for one year, spawn and die. I believe this is why we see very little sign of them in the early spring. As the spring progresses you see the new generation enter the lake. They start in the shallows and eventually spread all over the lake. They grow fast. This years are already 8 to 12 inches. I questioned Brian about the # of hits we are seeing on fish in the Converse area. He was surprised, very interested and a little puzzled by the reports. The reports from the northern area of the lake were not a surprise. Thorny
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Post by buckshot (Ben) on Jul 17, 2009 6:31:06 GMT -5
Thorny it is great that you went and represented, I wish I lived closer. Having someone that is one the water and talking to fellow fisherman and giving information straite to the biologists is invaluable. Good work. I am aware of the time table of how they spawn but then why would Ny DEC consider treating two years in a row. Maybe not all lamprey spawn every year or maybe they can change there spawning area? I will email one of our biologists and see what he says to these questions. I do know that there is a lot of tributaries in the coverse to basin harbor area. I wonder if they all have been tested. Also with the water getting cleaner in all rivers maybe they are starting to spawn in the big otter?
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Post by Thorny (Rob) on Jul 17, 2009 6:35:10 GMT -5
The Laplatte I believe is the only stream left on the vermont that has not been treated or trapped. The rest are all in the rotation at this point.
Ben I aggree with you about the level of concentration of the Chemicals needed. Vermont has done an enormous amount of research to determine what levels will kill Lamprey with minimal or no impact to non target species. They keep the treatment as low as possible. There is heavy opposition to the treatments. I believe if they tried to get permits for higher levels of treatment we would be battling in court. The good news is we are seeing positive results. The best thing we can all do is to get educated, involved and support the program.
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Post by dragnballs(Kevin) on Jul 17, 2009 7:21:57 GMT -5
The Laplatte I believe is the only stream left on the vermont that has not been treated or trapped. The rest are all in the rotation at this point. Ben I aggree with you about the level of concentration of the Chemicals needed. Vermont has done an enormous amount of research to determine what levels will kill Lamprey with minimal or no impact to non target species. They keep the treatment as low as possible. There is heavy opposition to the treatments. I believe if they tried to get permits for higher levels of treatment we would be battling in court. The good news is we are seeing positive results. The best thing we can all do is to get educated, involved and support the program. well said Rob
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Post by lazycs (mike) on Jul 17, 2009 8:24:32 GMT -5
thanks Kevin for the refresher on the lamprey life cycle, it is as i thought. thanks to those who attended last night. I've been to meetings in years past. will try and attend future meetings.
its definitely been a long road for these guys that half dedicated alot of time and energy into this program.
when they thought every thing was a go they hit a wall and treatments would get tied up in court again. now that there out of the woods with that (we hope) they can get after them and knock them down to where we will see a big improvement like we did when they did there experimental treatments wayyyyyy back when. thanks guys
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Post by buckshot (Ben) on Jul 17, 2009 15:19:10 GMT -5
Sorry VTbass your right I should have said Vermont delta's. Ny has been treating there side of the lake very well. Its the Vermont side that has seen the least amount of lamprey control. Vermont has a tendancy to take credit for the things done in New york. Take a look at how many NY rivers and deltas have been treated and how many Vt did, it may surprise you? Also if you look at how much NY puts into champlain lamprey treatments and how much Vt does it will astound you. Let me say though, I think they(Vt biologists) have done a great job getting back on track, I just think that Vermont biologists should worry less about a minority of peopel who have a problem with lamprey control and worry about killing lamprey. The agency of natural resources is where many of the road blocks have been put up. It was from people in our own government not so much court issues from what I understand. It is the agency of natural resources that sets the level of the treatment. Does anyone know what the treatment levels of the first test treatments done years ago were? Again this was all stuff I learned years ago while working to get lamprey treatments started again and going to meetings so if my info is wrong please set me straite if you have different information. Also if at the minimal teatment levels that we use why would NY wast there TFM by putting more in the water if it is unnessary? Doesn't make any sense to me?
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Post by dragnballs(Kevin) on Jul 17, 2009 16:24:34 GMT -5
Ben, From what I saw at the meeting last night in the graphics the plume from the treatment extends well into the delta and beyond to an extent. They also said that the flow rates need to be slow for the chemicals that NY uses to treat the deltas to work and that the rivers in VT flow too fast. Also Brian Chipman is going to e-mail the power point presentation to all who wanted it and I signed up to receive it and will gladly foreward it to you if you would like me to do so
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Post by tamiron on Jul 18, 2009 1:11:06 GMT -5
Also Brian Chipman is going to e-mail the power point presentation to all who wanted it and I signed up to receive it and will gladly foreward it to you if you would like me to do so I would like a copy, also, if you could, please. Thank you.
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Post by Thorny (Rob) on Jul 18, 2009 5:04:44 GMT -5
Ben I have had many conversations with Brian and Shawn about why Vermont does not treat deltas like New York. It is my understanding that it is because of the characteristics of the streams. Lamprey like sand and silt. Vermont streams in general have long runs with plenty of sand and silt for them to spawn in. The New York streams do not. So much of the spawning is done in the deltas instead of the streams. Immense research has been done to determine where this happens. If delta treatments would be successful in Vermont I believe that you would see them in the plan. I had the same impression that you have before I started asking questions. The more I asked the clearer the plan and the picture becomes. If anyone interested has time to attend these meetings. Any and all questions are thoroughly answered. For those of you that cannot, I will continue to pass on what I have learned. The research and planning that goes into these treatments is very impressive.
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Post by voyager on Jul 18, 2009 10:19:09 GMT -5
This is a very informative thread. Thanks to all who were able to attend the meeting. I appreciate your sharing what you learned.
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Post by salmoneye on Jul 18, 2009 10:31:08 GMT -5
Also Brian Chipman is going to e-mail the power point presentation to all who wanted it and I signed up to receive it and will gladly foreward it to you if you would like me to do so I would like a copy, also, if you could, please. Thank you. Count me in on the "I want a copy" list, please...
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Post by MarknFish (Mark) on Jul 18, 2009 17:37:20 GMT -5
I believe when the treatments started years ago that the ppm concentration was much higher than what's used today. You guys are right on with the delta's. Flows need to be low and the chemical (baylucide...spelling is probably off) settles into the sediment where it impedes the ability of the amoecetes to breathe, thus killing them. When the program started years ago I was in school at the time for fisheries biology and we treated Lewis Creek. Helped set up nets etc. to trap the dead and the numbers were astounding there!
This is a great thread and I'd love to have a copy of the ppt presentation as well. Brian Chipman and his crew are all dedicated professionals working for the same cause, which is the fishery. As Ben stated they are somewhat handcuffed by the political piece of this puzzle.
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