|
Post by guybby on Jul 13, 2009 10:36:26 GMT -5
Guy, You and BBY are very close to the LCI. Pretty much you guys go hand in hand. I think that is great as you are being a surrogate and providing the information on the issue. Good job. Thanks for taking the lead on this, weather on your own? Or asked by someone else?. Looking forward to more answers to forum members questions. Capt. Tony www.anbradoncharters.comHi Capt. Tony, Basically when I was coming to post a few weeks back after the derby, I saw the thread(s) and concerns and questions so I just asked them(LCI). Same as anyone could, just used the phone and email. If by close, you mean BBY is a sponsor, yes, that is true, but so are some 70 other companies. I doubt all those sponsors, (and I am sure many of them can read financials as can I with my background), would support the kind of organization some here are trying to suggest LCI is - either directly or through innuendo. That is what prompted me to report back here, because I felt it concerning to see the sentiments and inferences snowballing despite all the essential pieces in place to make an informed decision or opinion of how LCI is run, functions and operates. But then again, I have also volunteered alot of time at their events (Yankee Show included where I met some of the guys here) so I know what kind of operation they run. I urge others to do the same, unless it is only prize money or the quality of prizes people are interested in and not really the resource as claimed. Would you agree, that, there are many people, charter captains like yourself, marine based business owners like myself, community members that utilize the lake for recreation, etc that benefit directly from the resource and indirectly from the efforts of professional resource advocates like LCI? From what I saw, this whole thread started about how LCI and Rotary fees have been raised each year the last five. We already know that is a wrong assumption as far as LCI goes, but there hasn't been recognition of that point being confirmed as incorrect, apologies made, and I have not seen anyone posting Rotary financials here. If I missed it, please let me know as it would be helpful to look at. And, I firmly believe in the freedom to ask questions, do warranted research into the financials and operations of an organization that is charitable and to confirm that what they are doing with our donations is aligning with what is best for the resource and community it effects. And with that, I guess that is what perplexes me most about why this has taken off in many directions. An answer was arrived at with the fees issue. Done. Now, maybe that lead to further questions about more specifics. Ok, that again is something everyone has the right to check on. But, from what I know and see, there has been ample opportunities to visit the office, email those in charge directly, call, or utilize other methods to sit down and professionally and efficiently arrive at an explanation and conclusion to what takes place at LCI. You and others wanted answers, and I am getting them for you, and it is my pleasure to do so. I am not a surrogate or a game piece that is going between LCI and this forum, however. It has been very simple asking questions and receiving answers directly. Thanks, Guy
|
|
|
Post by guybby on Jul 13, 2009 10:42:21 GMT -5
Well said bomber---and Guy---what the heck is all that charting for---people are saying that with all considered, it is getting pretty expensive to fish the derby---maybe they mean in consideration of the fact that only 22% of the gross is going to prizes and 44% to staff and .01% ($6116) to any direct lake related benefit. Give us some answers to those questions---not some chart of how much we are being charged to fish this derby. Hi Don, Thanks for the reply. The chart was to refer back to the first comment that started this issue..."how the entry fees of these derbies have gone up every year for about the last 5 or 6 years". That was all, and that was the information I got after requesting it. It shows the basics of the fees and their trends over the last 5 fiscal years. I started with the basics, as some of the stuff on here is so off track that I do not want to spend time, nor the time of others I am contacting, for things that may derail us all from getting the important information. I then noted what I will ask going forward (prizes, payouts and then after that bank balances and programs), as I saw those topics to be what is most desired by the forum. I will report back as I said when I get the answers, but again, there is nothing magical about how I am getting responses, I am just using email. Thanks, Guy
|
|
|
Post by salmoneye on Jul 13, 2009 10:49:50 GMT -5
Guy,
Thank you for the well thought out, cogent and unemotional response...
|
|
|
Post by donsreelsports on Jul 13, 2009 12:06:32 GMT -5
Guy--I appreciate your answer, and you are right. This did all start with the questioning or the statement that the derby was getting a bit expensive. I guess even if it stayed the same, which it did, in this economy some would feel the pinch more than in other years---especially with gas and all---and most of us do not have paychecks that can simply just keep going up to meet those expenses---matter of fact many have lost jobs, been downsized, or cut back ion their hours. I can appreciate that you have no desire to be the "GO-BETWEEN" in this debate---nor should you have to be. What has really amazed me more than anything else about this thread, is the fact that we anglers have supported the LCI for years now, with MILLIONS of dollars, and yet, it seems, there are NO board members, nor the Director, nor the Exec. Director, that are members of this forum. Frank got on to give his response, but I believe that was his first post. I think that is kind of sad for the simple reason that I believe that the contributors to this forum, whether I agree with them or not, are, by far, the most knowledgeable individuals concerning the everyday happenings on the Lake that could be found anywhere. Why in the world would an organization like LCI not want to have membership in the forum and be able to carry on a dialogue with those as up-to-date as we are on Lake happenings----both good and bad. And if they were----then, Guy---you would not have to speak for them---they could speak for themselves. Appreciate your time---know you are busy.
|
|
|
Post by frankpetrosino on Jul 13, 2009 13:33:29 GMT -5
Contact information is given in the letter to Mr. Chioffi, which I include below. Answers will be provided in due course if you contact us as provided below. Lake Champlain International, Inc. does not intend to post directly to this forum again. Given the nature and tone of some comments on this forum discussing Lake Champlain International, Inc., Lake Champlain International, Inc. does not believe that this is a constructive medium for reaching those genuinely concerned about our organization, our mission, and what our organization does for Lake Champlain and its communities. *** Mr. Don Chioffi (a/k/a donsreelsports), As you know, I am a board member of Lake Champlain International, Inc. (since 2001). I write this to you solely as a board member; though to be fair to all who read this, I am also an attorney by trade and an owner of the law firm of Paul Frank + Collins. We have already exchanged correspondence regarding your apparently reckless disregard for the truth when you referred to Lake Champlain International, Inc. as a “swindle” in a recent article in Sam’s Good News, a Rutland periodical. You have wisely agreed to prominently retract your untrue statement, and I look forward to reading it. You have chosen to use this forum to question if and how Lake Champlain International, Inc. spends the money it generates. This is a legitimate question, to be sure; however, many of your comments on this forum and elsewhere contain irresponsible inaccuracies that are easily verifiable (such as James Ehlers’ ownership of Outdoors Magazine) and are belligerent beyond reason. Contrary to your allegations, you have always been able to obtain Lake Champlain International, Inc.’s federal tax returns. We have told you repeatedly since April 2008 that you could come to our Colchester office and pick up the returns. Alternatively, we told you where to find them online and offered to mail them to you so long as you covered the cost of copying and mailing. You chose to do none of those things. For some reason, you expressed a fear of coming to our office; such fear is unfounded (we are generally a very friendly lot unless you attack us). You were unwilling to reimburse us for the cost of mailing our tax returns to you. All of this is documented in an email exchange with you from that time (we still retain copies of them). You even failed to go online to get them (as you now know, they are at www2.guidestar.org/ReportNonProfi....=715812&dl=True (free registration required) and www.eri-nonprofit-salaries.com/in....ndid=0&sourceid). Instead, you chose to make unfounded remarks about Lake Champlain International, Inc. without doing even basic research. You have also been invited to Lake Champlain International, Inc. board meetings (one board member even offered you a ride). You did not accept this offer. Lake Champlain International, Inc. is a tax exempt charitable organization. Its primary purpose is to conserve, restore, and revitalize the Lake Champlain watershed and its communities (what you would refer to as the “resource”) through events and education. Though we do support other charities financially, most of the money that Lake Champlain International, Inc. generates through its derbies and fundraising efforts goes towards supporting Lake Champlain’s own initiatives to protect the resource. What you fail to realize is that all of the money Lake Champlain International, Inc. generates goes to protect the resource in one way or another. You have seen the list of Lake Champlain International, Inc.’s recent accomplishments and initiatives. You apparently think that it is cheap to achieve these accomplishments and promote these initiatives and that it all can be done with volunteers; you couldn’t be farther from the truth. For example, undertaking the Swanton dam removal project (one of our initiatives) easily runs into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. As far as the numbers go, we have nothing to hide. Our federal tax returns are readily available, and always have been. We understand that tax returns are not the easiest documents to read (what tax returns ever are?), and we are very willing to answer questions about specific items on our returns and how they benefit Lake Champlain. You and anyone reading this letter are more than welcome to contact me ( fpetrosino@pfclaw.com) or our Executive Director James Ehlers ( james@mychamplain.net) directly. Many of the people reading this already know how to reach our Executive Director and have done so in the past on other issues; for some reason, they fail to do so now. I find this curious. James Ehlers is quite accessible, especially for a man with his schedule. If you want to make an appointment with James, he will gladly sit down with you at a mutually convenient time and location to discuss Lake Champlain International, Inc.’s financial performance and the work that it does to help and protect Lake Champlain. Despite your reckless behavior at times, you are also still welcome to attend a board meeting, and this comes at the urging of James Ehlers (despite your personal attacks on him). You should note that the board is quite pleased to have the talents, skills, experience, and dedication of James Ehlers at our service, particularly given how sought-after he is by for-profit firms where the financial benefits to him far surpass what we can offer him. If you have a legitimate complaint about Lake Champlain International, Inc.’s finances, then feel free to call the Vermont Attorney General’s office or the Internal Revenue Service. We are more than willing to undergo the scrutiny of any government entity and those whom we serve. This Internet forum, however, is not the place for doing such, especially after you have falsely accused us, without any research (never mind proof), of illegally handling our finances. Sincerely, Frank Petrosino Lake Champlain International, Inc Board Member
|
|
|
Post by guybby on Jul 13, 2009 15:14:18 GMT -5
Hi Don,
Thanks for your follow up, I appreciate it.
I am glad to hear that we are on the same page about what this derived from, and I hope all of us here on this forum can agree that we found the answer to that question as being that the fees did not increase every single year, as well as the fact that the proportions of increase, when there was such, were not exorbitant and were on target with inflation costs, etc.
I can absolutely understand the pinch every one of us is in economically and financially. Being in the boating market and constantly speaking with our users and those within the community, I hear a variety of stories that touch upon topics of gas, job loss, cutting back on leisure activities, and more. I too have my own understanding both in my business and personal life that inevitably become effected and cause me to plan and strategize in ways that differ from the set path that is outlined during the "good times".
As far as the LCI members/board/staff not having a presence here, Frank did join and posted information that was on behalf of the organization. Whether everyone agreed with the delivery and data, it was still an outreach from LCI to try and explain some of the finer points in question. In fact, this morning I saw a post from Frank, edited with a new opening paragraph that explained why they are not responding directly on this forum (aka engaging in the back and forth posting) and why they will not do so. That post was I believe in the "LCI Board" section and is since gone, but now is back here in this thread, not sure why. And even if Frank only joined recently with few posts, I think we all know he was not on here to check fishing reports and take part as many of us do. You joined recently as well, for your own reasons regarding fishing and whatnot, so I think timing and quantity is not the issue here, but rather why he had to do so.
Objectively, why he had to do so is because I don't know how many here have actually reached out to LCI more than to request the financial data. What I mean is, who has actually set up a time to meet with them? Had open and professional email discussions? Meaningful and informative phone calls? Etc? I think that is the key here, and that is what is working for me. I am not on the board, I am not a staff member, and being a sponsor doesn't grant me access to other methods of communication that do not exist for everyone. I think as we let a thread grow and grow, debating the reasons why they do not come here, etc we waste vital time that is important to all of us. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. This forum is A, LCI is Z. While many posts here are great discussions, we have stopped off at b, c, d, e, f and so on when we could just go to the source...more than just asking for financials but setting concrete meetings.
I have no problem getting people the truth, because I support the notion of upfront and factual processes to important issues and solutions, especially when regarding an organization I believe in. I guess I am amazed too, Don, because by now after how long this has gone on, I would have expected someone who is truly concerned and believes in their contentions, to have said, "Guys I have a meeting with LCI on XYZ date, and I will welcome any questions you all wish me to bring."
But I guess that's what I'm doing.
Thanks again, Don.
Guy
|
|
|
Post by Silver Fox on Jul 13, 2009 16:59:55 GMT -5
Thanks Guy
|
|
|
Post by fishinmachine on Jul 13, 2009 17:04:55 GMT -5
this guy is just repeating what frank the lawyer said, you want answers , you go to Burlington and get them yourself, they aren't going to post them for you . that would be too easy. they want you to go out of your way because they know that 98% of us are not going to do that and because they don't want that information on a public forum.I think this method of suppressing this info stinks. Its bull and I for one will never support the lci again.period. there are other derbies to support and I will.I find it very distressing that the lci people don't think enough of this forum or the people on it to answer the questions posed by this forum on this forum.
|
|
|
Post by donsreelsports on Jul 13, 2009 18:59:23 GMT -5
It looks to me like they have a pretty uppity attitude toward fishermen (and women). If I can go,l as you say, Guy, to the office and get all my questions answered, and then come back on here and regurgitate the answers to all of you????don't you think it would be a much shorter circuit---"your straight line is the shortest distance between two points argument" for him to answer the questions directly and not through some intermediary. there is far too much room for error in the translation or the interpretation of any answer that is relayed that way----I know---I have been that route before on many other similar issues.
At the risk of being redundant, I want to emphasize that Lawyers, by their very trade, are circuitous in their arguments, they twist, they play games with words, BUT---when in court, they ask direct questions---and they expect direct answers---and the good ones do not EVER ask a question that they do not already know the answer to-----so you can read all his stuff over and over---but you still DO NOT GET ANY ANSWERS TO YOUR QUESTIONS---DO YOU?
And, for the lawyer-----I do not know why it is that whenever you address the members of this forum---you always have a defensive tone---and always refer to the "nature and tone" of the member's comments and questions as somehow harsh or derogatory. They are just asking for answers to some very pointed questions. They are becoming more and more suspicious for the simple reason that anyone that does not have anything to hide would be happy to answer those questions-----IN PUBLIC FOR ALL TO HEAR-----not just for those who make the trek to your office, or who you talk to in private-----because all we hear from those people is that they have talked to you or James---and that they are satisfied that there are no problems and that all is going well----just the same glowing statements, but NO NUMBERS AND NO FACTUAL REBUTTAL OF ANY OF THE CRITICAL COMMENTS ABOUT THOSE NUMBERS THAT HAVE BEEN VOICED HERE ON THIS FORUM.
THE TRUTH, FRANK, IF IT IS ON YOUR SIDE, CAN SHUT DOWN THOSE CRITICS IN AN INSTANT!!!!
|
|
|
Post by mikep on Jul 13, 2009 23:49:33 GMT -5
Guy,
I like the idea that you are willing to be a conduit and communicator of these questions making a straight line to the source of the answers. Reason being , it might be a little cumbersome for the LCI staff to interview with about thirty people individually over the same questions. Your effort is a smart and much more efficient process. Sadly , LCI itself refuses to do this. When you do this and report your findings on this thread, questions will end, I think. I'm glad its been very simple and easy for you to get information.
I hope that you can directly get answers to my questions as outlined in my response this Am at 8:11. One thing, though, on the revenue side, of the 433,008 what is the break out between revenue from the derbies, revenue from sponsors and revenue from grants. What does a sponsor donate and what are the expectations from a sponsor in general ? is there a contract.
You expressed some doubt as to the sincerity of the questions with regard to concern for the resource and the type of operation the LCI is. I assume the resource is the lake and environment. The apparent lack of direct project funding improvements to the lake is the principle concern I think of most in this discussion. Please give us the benefit of doubt when the observations made from the 990s indicate no cash flows into projects from the LCI. (minor exceptions) . What this is about I think is simply most people think that direct funding of projects was what LCI did with fund raising. Think of it as a paradigm change for most of us, one we stumbled on ourselves and one that takes a little getting use to.
The fishermen on this forum have made me much more attuned to concern for the lake than any other source . this is a sincere group.
So then the conceptual questions becomes what then is the operation of the LCI? The observations from the 990s simply indicate that the LCI in the majority supports itself (its own cost structure) with the fund raising and then it becomes difficult to see what is accomplished beyond the Derby sponsorship. The programs the LCI establishes, funds it launches don't seem to be funded per the 990 , so confirmation then is needed (my question 4). You know , there is difference in perception if the LCI appears to fund this stuff but perhaps it does not. If it does not, then so be it. Knowing is what matters.
there is no doubt that the LCI is a great organizer of events especially the big derby that brings out lots of people to the lake . Its a stimulus to all in business and a valid thing. thats the obvious.
If what they do is organize stuff, and promote fisheries restoration, lake Champlain watershed education and the practice of ethical fishing through administrative efforts, then it would be good to know that it is accomplished through administrative efforts not hard projects they can point to. Knowing is what matters. If there is an advocate out there full time, thats a good thing provided real benefits trickle down to the community.
Thanks Guy for your work on this.
Mike
|
|
|
Post by guybby on Jul 14, 2009 12:54:27 GMT -5
Hi Guys, This is a note I received from LCI today. I will continue to follow up with the posts Mike, Don, etc. I appreciate your responses and hope this is helping. Thanks, Guy
|
|
|
Post by fishinmachine on Jul 14, 2009 17:39:26 GMT -5
same old gobbldygook without any numbers as to how much money is going directly back into lake champlain. am I to assume that there is no money that goes directly back to the lake and that all this great stuff that James does is funded as administrative costs through the LCI? and if that's the case,Jim, then why don't you just say so and be done with it?frank
|
|
|
Post by ajsoma on Jul 14, 2009 18:52:01 GMT -5
I will not fish the LCI anymore....neither will all the people I know that have previously fished the derby. Cousins, Dad, Aunt and Uncle, and the several friends I know that fish it. Just because the LCI isn't what it seems.
How many lamprey meetings did LCI attend last year?
sorry guy...I know the LCI means a lot to you and you get advertisements etc through them but you don't need them. I have been sitting back for a while now and thinking about how Ehlers has dealt with some of my friends that have sponsored certain parts of the derby and end up screwed out of $. It goes beyond what has been mentioned on this forum. Others that just say he is a jerk. The way he has dealt with them has been unprofessional....
I have heard and seen enough. I know what the LCI is about....Making $...and the balance of money made vs. lake improvement is not equal...I only say this based on what has been presented or in this case not presented to make me think any different...
I do believe LCI encourages other organizations to dish out the $'s, and LCI themselves as a non-profit ends up with good $ at end of the day. This to me is an important point.
Guy, why is this taking Ehlers so long...because hes so busy I know.....I would think this would be a pretty important and easy/quick subject to clear up?
I don't care about the registration fees or payouts to be honest with you....it's all about the principle...This LCI is a big time money maker for those involved with LCI. Period. That is fine with me!!! But come out and admit it. Don't give false impressions. But how much of a money maker for Ehlers...nobody knows....!! He's smart and knows how to work the books.
Its OK that LCI makes a lot of money for the people that work hard to put it on... but where the money goes is not as it comes accross for me, maybe I didn't understand the mission or NON-PROFIT....in which case it is my fault....we have discussed why the mission is misleading several time in the 2 LCI threads. And as far as going to Ehlers' office for a meeting to discuss this...please...why... so nothing is on record? Whats he afraid of...
I have come to my conclusions....again it is important to know that this is not only because of what has happened on this forum...
|
|
|
Post by donsreelsports on Jul 14, 2009 19:41:14 GMT -5
fishinmachine----I think you have it pretty much summarized. I mean, I really don't have a problem with the LCI board hiring an Executive Director to be, essentially a lobbiest, organizer, extension arm of the Vermont F&W dept., and committee member on any number of other organizations to do the same. But I sincerely believe that the anglers of this state, especially boat anglers on Lake Champlain, had NO KNOWLEDGE whatsoever that this is essentially what all the other money other than the cash prizes for the derbies was going to fund. And again, only my personal opinion, but I honestly feel that if the State of Vermont sees the goals that they (WE) are funding with the State tax dollars as sufficiently important to benefit the whole state---and basically an administrative role carried on by the Executive Director of the LCI--then they should create their own administrative position---and fund the whole shebang with State dollars------then ALL the taxpayers of the state could share in these goals and not just the anglers that participate in the many derbies associated with the LCI. But I seriously think that most of us who fish Lake Champlain do understand the importance of administrative dealings, lobbying, and representation of many interests. What we can't seem to come to grips with is the apparent lack of concern, money, effort, and direction toward those HARD DOLLAR PROJECTS that we all know are needed. For example, how many NEW Fishing Access locations have you seen in the last ---say 10 years--on the Lake? And how many of the existing ones (which are a pretty poor excuse in comparison to our neighbor to the West) have you seen improved with an eye toward easier, safer, more convenient, and more exclusive use by the angling public that use boats? And how much enforcement of the "PRIORITY USAGE RULES" at existing State Fishing Access points do you ever see in this state? The answer to that one alone begs the question of need for more and better loading and unloading dockage, better ramps and upkeep of those ramps so that one does not BREAK A TRAILER AXLE, OR ACTUALLY LOSE A TRAILER (HAPPENED MANY TIMES AT LARABEE). These are all items that we could easily recognize if they were put on someone's priority list----but that does not seem to be happening and it is disheartening, to say the least. Those things and ALL THE LAMPREY CONTROL that we can possibly do are my priorities and I will gladly contribute to any organization that will assist in accomplishing goals relating to them. And though I will not try and diminish them in any way, "BOBBER BOB AND FISHING FOR FRIENDS", should not be substituted for HARD CASH CAPITAL PROJECTS THAT BENEFIT THE LAKE. And I think that a great majority of us wish that THOSE were the priorities of the LCI, and I think that most of the animosity, if there is any here, is really just extreme disappointment that the priorities of the LCI are mostly what you read in the post above by Mr. Ehlers------and NOT the HARD CASH CONTRIBUTIONS TO PROJECTS SUCH AS I MENTIONED ABOVE. James, why do you not just admit that you are not spending any substantial amount on projects that many of us who have supported you in the past thought you were spending?
By the way---"LOW IMPACT FISHING ACCESSES" is just another way of the State saying "TOO CHEAP TO BUILD THE KIND OF ACCESSES THAT REALLY ARE NEEDED BY BOAT ANGLERS". But they are surely ample for the kayakers , the canoers, and the sailboaters!!!!
Have a great week, everyone, and may all your creels be full.
|
|
|
Post by An Bradon Charters on Jul 14, 2009 19:47:13 GMT -5
Wondering about Guys post of the last numbers posted on the prize pay out. It shows the SUPER BONUS and the TEAM pay out. Is there a cash pay pay out for the people who just buy the regular entry fee? Or are they just prizes. Thanks for the information Guy. Capt. Tony www.anbradoncharters.com
|
|