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Post by salmoneye on Jul 10, 2009 21:26:19 GMT -5
REDACTED:
Y'all on y'own...
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Post by ajsoma on Jul 10, 2009 21:39:25 GMT -5
Mike,
Those are the questions that we all have. Very well said. It is very obvious that he can't provide the information for us, because if he could have he would have. Instead he suggest a private meeting with Ehlers...come on...is it really that big of a secret where the money is....really...maybe it is?
Franks post - - I have a feeling we won't be hearing from Frank again hopefully i am wrong. This "stuff" he posted up (for lack of a better word) was posted to try to get the majority of normal people here to fall for whatever crap was said in that whole mess of a post. I'm thinking back to it now, it answered no questions...and it seems to have been done just to try and satisfy the people that will fall for it. Something is fishy here guys no pun intended ha.
Think of the timeline of information presented, who comes accross as having nothing to hide and presents facts (Donreelsports), and who has no facts and simply states things that we already knew from the beginning about the 990, and invtites private meetings or emails to discuss the $ of this non-profit event......please
Tamiron and others that think all the info is in the 990--if its there get it and post it ...stop playing around by simply saying its there...that puts you in the same boat as those saying its not there...actually worse
and hpflyfishing ( you said "How about you guys do your own homework, instead of complaining cause no one does it for you." )---read the thread before making posts like that, people have done their homework...thats the whole point...thats why we are here.... Oh yea, and if you don't like this thread simply don't click on the link to get to the posts then you don't have to read it.
Still haven't gotten the $'s that went to lamprey control of the $433,000. In the last 15 years my father and I have spent over $2800 registering for derbies. This is a well known large problem on the lake...some money from LCI must have gone to this fund..what is it?
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Post by An Bradon Charters on Jul 10, 2009 21:44:20 GMT -5
Mike, Those are the questions that we all have. Very well said. It is very obvious that he can't provide the information for us, because if he could have he would have. Instead he suggest a private meeting with Ehlers...come on...is it really that big of a secret where the money is....really...maybe it is? Franks post - - I have a feeling we won't be hearing from Frank again hopefully i am wrong. This "stuff" he posted up (for lack of a better word) was posted to try to get the majority of normal people here to fall for whatever crap was said in that whole mess of a post. I'm thinking back to it now, it answered no questions...and it seems to have been done just to try and satisfy the people that will fall for it. Something is fishy here guys no pun intended ha. Think of the timeline of information presented, who comes accross as having nothing to hide and presents facts (Donreelsports), and who has no facts and simply states things that we already knew from the beginning about the 990 Tamiron and others that think all the info is in the 990--if its there get it and post it all it would be is a copy and paste from adobe...stop playing around by simply saying its there... and hpflyfishing ( you said "How about you guys do your own homework, instead of complaining cause no one does it for you." )---read the thread before making posts like that, people have done their homework. Oh yea, and if you don't like this thread simply don't click on the link to get to the posts then you don't have to read it. Still haven't gotten the $'s that went to lamprey control of the $433,000. In the last 15 years my father and I have spent over $2800 registering for derbies. This is a well known large problem on the lake...some money from LCI must have gone to this fund..what is it? Ajsoma, You make some great points. It obvious you as well as the rest are very concerned about the issue. Capt. Tony www.anbradoncharters.com
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Post by lazybones on Jul 11, 2009 9:15:27 GMT -5
Mr Petrosino,
Thanks for taking the time to reply. All due respect, your reply comes across as very defensive and provides very little new information.
I find your suggestion to have interested individuals call for an appointment to meet with the LCI individually a bit odd as it seems a waste of resources to ignore the opportunity to reach out to many interested folks using the most efficient method available.
The LCI might consider publishing on it's website a "P&L for dummies". Many companies, especially companies which are owned in part or in full by the employees, do something like this as a way to keep the less accounting speak literate folks informed.
As one of those guys whose filter between his brain and his mouth often malffunctions I can attest to the fact that for every individual who asks the tough questions there are a dozen more sitting there quietly, on the edge of their seats, waiting for the answer to the questions they didn't ask because they didn't want to make waves. Point being, I wouldn't assume that these things are being wondered about only by a few rabble rousers on a internet forum.
Your reply seems more an effort to "put out the fire" rather then to openly discuss the issues brought up and answer the import and and very valid questions being asked.
This is very puzzling and instead of calming the breeze being kicked up here only intensifies it a bit and maybe even swings it around to the east. When the wind is out of the east I just stay home.
The LCI is missing a great opportunity here and is hurting it's image in the process.
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Post by mikep on Jul 11, 2009 11:53:32 GMT -5
Well said lazy Bones, well said. The somewhat elusive response by Frank Petrosino does not address our questions. Now, I want every question I had in this post answered. I'm getting the feeling the LCI just does not want to reveal what the are with respect to what the do with cash received and what they really do in the community. this puzzles me because I use to have faith in the LCi and its management and this stonewalling is undermining it. it would be simple for them to explain their financial strategy and what they actually do in a synopsis on this forum. Most of this could be handled in a matter of an hour by someone like Jim Ehlers who I'm sure is knowledgeable and fully aware of what we want. But instead they are forcing us to look up themselves and try to figure it out without their support. Bad policy in my opinion.
All forum members should look up the form 990 that they are required by the government to provide any interested party. If they stonewall they can be fined. They choose to quibble about who pays for 22 pages of copy and the 84 cent stamp per Franks post. (guidestar.org)
I just figured out how to access the 990 for fiscal 2008 and have a copy to read. Here is what I see in it (facts as reported) and certainly will want confirmation of what I say about it from the LCI , right or wrong: 1)The LCI does not have audited financial statements. 2) Total revenues of 433, 008. Total expenditures of 400,723. $190,872 spent on functional expenditures that is for staff salaries, rent, postage , printing and can be looked at as what it costs to have the staff and run the office. Office rent is 10,800 annually, from some landlord because they don't own the building. So, 44.08 percent of the annual revenue is spent on staff and office. The function expenditures do not show any evidence of cash donation or cash outlay to any government, educational institution, or scientific study (nothing to third parties) . So there is no monetary support in this category evident for support of the lake.
the other 209, 851 in expenditures to equal the 400,723 total expenditures is listed as other expenses which is the cost of running the derbies. Of the 209, 851, they paid out 95, 070 in prizes or 21.95 percent of their total revenue. The 209, 851 derby expense is all operating cost with no apparent cost for education or contribution to any government, educational institution, scientific study or anything. NADA. One exception though is 882 they have classified as education outreach. so 48.46 percent of the annual revenues are paid for the cost of ruining the derbies.
So far 96.09 percent of cash received as revenue has been spent with no evidence of any contribution to any effort for the lake outside of paying themselves.
the remaining amount of 32, 285 was put into a savings account. Assets are $226, 841, most of it in cash at 219, 143. since they earn cash each year, the cash balance is excessive since it represents several years of earning. It could be spent on genuine educational program for kids, for example.
The do not own anything of significance , no plant no building no land, only 6, 036 in depreciated assets. Meaning they have not invested in anything for the lake or its users that would benefit everyone.
there stated purpose in the form 990 is to host derbies as a way to promote clean water, inform and educate the public of the value of a healthy watershed, invigorate the Champlain economy and promote family values. Well , I'll leave it up to you to decide if they do all this. I note in the derby gazette which is a tool for education or could be , there is no thing about education in it.
It looks like they primarily host derbies. If they educate the public, they clearly spend no cash to do that , and do not spend cash to uphold lamprey control, scientific studies or anything tangible for the lake. There must be intangibles which to me is whatever Jim Ehlers does to help the lake, its one man against the tide of needs that do not appear to be met by this organization. Or at least they don't tell us about it. There is no doubt that the fishermen are the defacto owners of this organization since their money is used to run it.
Is there a need for a derby that pays out reasonable prize awards to fishermen since this organization does not seem to justify the low rate of return (21 percent) for public purposes. that is if they accomplish things thru Jim's efforts, what are they and will that justify a low rate of return to fishing contributors.
Lastly, I have always though they did a lot for the lake based on there marketing , but where is the beef? I'm stunned to see it the way it is per the financial statement.
As Frank Petrosino said , "most of the money that lake Champlain international generates through its derbies and fund raising (fun raising only 2,187 this year) goes towards supporting lake champlains own initiatives to protect the resource". According to Frank lake champlain itself has initiatives , but is that double speak making you think money goes somewhere or does it have any meaning at all? does champ do something for lake champlain indirectly thru the LCI?
MikeP
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Post by Silver Fox on Jul 11, 2009 12:43:01 GMT -5
State perpose is to host derbies, they do that. Nothing about Lamprey control. Good post Mike.
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Post by fishinmachine on Jul 11, 2009 14:46:25 GMT -5
Mike, you came up with pretty much the same conclusion that donsreelsports did. It seems that lci has been pulling the wool over everybodys eyes for a long time. I still will give them the benifit of the doubt if they will print some FACTS in this forum.
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Post by guybby on Jul 12, 2009 10:05:37 GMT -5
Hey Guys, I wrote LCI and asked about their fees and I got answer right back. It was pretty easy, actually. Did not feel I was getting stonewalled or anything like some others here say. But then again I did not accuse them of stealing, cheating or lying. “Here is the last 5 years of registration fees for now. You will note the zero percent increases in many instances, and others well below the rate of inflation—numbers that we are quite proud of given the exorbitant increases in the price of gas, postage and paper during the same time period.” I plan to ask them next about prizes, payouts and then after that bank balances and programs. I have looked at what they are doing, and I imagine that, for one, pulling together federal support for federal funding from 4 senators, two congressmen, two states, one federal agency and the Great Lakes Fishery Commission is no small feat. Not exactly just showing up at a meeting at the local high school. Cannot imagine how much time and skill that took. Not to mention starting a school fishing club program and childrens fisheries and water quality education program. Even without more information, I know I will continue to support them. I will report back. Thanks, enjoy your Sunday, Guy
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Post by ouananiche on Jul 12, 2009 12:51:22 GMT -5
Do not read it if it is not of interest to you. Obviously this is a concern that other members want to discuss.
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Post by fishinmachine on Jul 12, 2009 15:39:00 GMT -5
guy, keep at it, its the stuff hundreds of us want to know,frank
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Post by An Bradon Charters on Jul 12, 2009 19:30:37 GMT -5
Guy, You and BBY are very close to the LCI. Pretty much you guys go hand in hand. I think that is great as you are being a surrogate and providing the information on the issue. Good job. Thanks for taking the lead on this, weather on your own? Or asked by someone else?. Looking forward to more answers to forum members questions. Capt. Tony www.anbradoncharters.com
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Post by donsreelsports on Jul 12, 2009 19:59:37 GMT -5
Capt. Tony---can you please tell me, or have Scott tell me why the original thread, LCI and Rotary too expensive, could not, also have been transferred to the NEW Heading---since that one had far more hits than mine and had some real good questions and information on it? And thank you both for "preserving" the DEMOCRACY of this forum---there are those who love to fish but also love to get direct answers to their questions and will not trade one for the other.
Everyone should re-read Mikep's reply #50, and then, with eyes wide open, ask yourself why we should NOT be concerned and also looking for a NEW direction to point the LCI board towards.
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Post by bomber on Jul 12, 2009 20:03:07 GMT -5
Vtbass, can you tell me why you read the thread if you have no interest in it and you're only interested in fishing reports.
There is a special fishing reports sections!
Why would you stomp on the rest of us?
Thanks
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Post by donsreelsports on Jul 12, 2009 21:50:59 GMT -5
Well said bomber---and Guy---what the heck is all that charting for---people are saying that with all considered, it is getting pretty expensive to fish the derby---maybe they mean in consideration of the fact that only 22% of the gross is going to prizes and 44% to staff and .01% ($6116) to any direct lake related benefit. Give us some answers to those questions---not some chart of how much we are being charged to fish this derby.
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Post by mikep on Jul 13, 2009 7:11:15 GMT -5
Guy,
"What you fail to realize is that all of the money Lake Champlain International, Inc. generates goes to protect the resource in one way or another" This is a quote from Frank Petrosino in what is suppose to be a response of how the LCi handles fund raising cash flow. Would you accept such a vague and insulting response for your business?. Would you think this means cash to projects? This superficiality is what peaks people interest, full disclosure would not ruffle people. Frank wanted to quibble over postage and document expense for 22 pages of a 990 filing requested by a citizen, which lets face it, it is indicative of small thinking.
No one here has accused LCI of lying cheating or stealing as you I think in humor said but just want to be sure. People here though have been completely ignored by the LCI, asking just basic questions about their fund raising and use of funds received from fishermen. From this experience the LCI is acting like a closed corporation when they in fact are the opposite, one that needs to be fully open because they depend on the public for their existence.
Since they chose to be silent, fishermen went independently to the nonprofit filing requirement (990)and raised questions from it and got answers from it. Now because they were silent, many fishermen now know how they operate per the 990. I have asked for confirmation of the following for 2008 and ask you to get for us: 1. revenue received 433,008 is spent primarily on the cost of operating derbies and the cost of operating and retaining staff (92.54% of revenue) . This years excess over that amount of expense 32, 285 was deposited in a bank account. Nothing is left to directly help lake projects.
2. The form 990 does not specifically show any cash donations to any third party, any fund, or any effort to improve the lake.
3. Cash in bank is 219, 143 as of September 30, 2008.
4. As advertised in the Gazette , the LCI "launched " the Champlain fisheries Recovery fund, "established" fishing club grants, and the "Fishing for friends is alive and well". Guy , how much cash was donated to each by the LCi. How much by others?
5. Fishing payout prize money from the revenue for fiscal year 2008 of 95, 070 was about 100,000 less than the previous year. Guy since you have a good way with the LCI, would you also find out if the revenue of 433,008 includes any grants from any where , and how much. it would be interesting to see if the LCI has attracted or merited any other source of grant funds and thus strengthen its ability to do something for the lake at least in the future.
Modus Operandi: The LCI fund raising effort through Derbies, is primarily focused to earn enough cash to keep a full time employee working on the goals of the LCI. No hard projects are funded by the LCI to a significant level, but rather makes efforts to work in the community to coordinate the work of others to actually create useful lake projects. Most of the work done by the LCI is administrative in nature.
The LCI has donated no cash to the Lamprey Control???
LCI has no volunteeers under their control working on hard projects, like stocking, lamprey control, scientific studies, or other form of hands on work to benefit t the lake???
Guy , the questions above are mundane really, and should take them about 15 minutest to compile for you. What it will accomplish is informing the interested fishermen that the LCI is not a direct contributor to lake projects as I and a lot of other people sincerely thought. for those of us over the years that bought into them as a real meaningful champion of cash hands on improvements for the lake , this is all kind of a shock. It doesn't mean its bad or whatever else defensive remarks bring up.
this is in no way meant to diminish the work that is done by the director and others.
Guy if you get these answers, Fishermen now can make an informed decisions if their contributions are worth the output of the Non profit and if they are going to be satisfied that only 21 percent of their contributions are returned in prize bounty from the LCI bank account. .
MikeP
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