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Post by buckshot (Ben) on Jul 29, 2009 19:54:41 GMT -5
Awesome report Thorny, Glad to hear you had a great day. We got 10 lakers and 3 short salmon today. The clients were very happy. Man did it get ruff quick this afternoon. Fortunatly when we saw the storm a brewing we headed for the dock and just tied up when a fifty mile and hour wind storm ripped threw the marina. Thanks to capt Bill we were safe on the dock.
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Post by champlain fisher on Jul 29, 2009 20:10:32 GMT -5
Rob nice fish - here is a theroy I have on why the fish may be empty at this time of year.
This fish you piced here has started to already dawn the looks of of a fresh run looking spawning landlocked. The face on this buck is pretty well defined for this time of year. This is a nice fish but it isn't at that stage of maturiaty yet for the face to always have that strong of a defination. There is a good bit of difference in the overall coloration on your fish then the one that was piced from the LCI derby from back in mid June. This fish is not as bright silver like that one. That along with the lack of bait in the stomachs as reported lately could be caused by an early transition over to spawning mode. These atlantics will travel up streams as early as June if conditions are right to start their spawning runs. With the extreme rains and below average temps this season it could mean there might be an early run of spawners this year. These fish get somewhat like pacific salmon during the spawning phase in that they don't feed hardly at all and when they are in full spawn they are very, very hard to get to take a bait or fly. 20 years of trib fishing spawning salmon has taught me a lot about their life cycle. This may also be why the bite has been up and down with them as well as they could be already starting to migrate around to look for flowing water which with the stream levels being as good as they have it's not going to deter them. These fish will go out of perfered temp during this transition which may explain why they are not where they would normally be or feeding like they normally are on a more typical weather year. I have also seen on hot dry years that it ends up being the fastly fading daylight hours that makes the fish run to do their thing. On real low water years I have seen it be mid to late Nov. before there are fish in the tribs and they come and go in a 10 to 14 day window. Why I think it is the daylight cycle then is because the water level conditions were not good enough - basicly really, really low - to draw the fish in.
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Post by An Bradon Charters on Jul 29, 2009 20:30:27 GMT -5
Commander, Interesting theory and great information. You certainly have paid your dues and been very observant over the years chasing these guys. We have had very consistent fishing and still have been doing well on Salmon this year. The one thing i noticed was since ice out the fish have not had much in there stomachs. The fish i have opened all season have been empty or close to it. We also have for the better part of the season been catching our salmon in different areas then one would expect. You would think that they would be around bait balls. This has not been the case for us this season at all. I have found that it seems to be more current and wind conditions that dictate where we find active fish. I long ago got rid of my probe as I believe fish will leave temperature to feed and go back to it for comfort. Reading your post and information and adding it to what I have seen this year and years past makes me a believer in your theory for the most part. There are still some variables that have me scratching my head but I want to say thanks for adding to my thought process. In years past we catch decent Salmon through late August then September forget it. I am hoping continued dent results this year through August as well. Thanks again for the information. Capt. Tony www.anbradoncharters.com
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Post by tamiron on Jul 29, 2009 23:19:31 GMT -5
Capt. Per your last post .... The fish i have opened all season have been empty or close to it. We also have for the better part of the season been catching our salmon in different areas then one would expect. You would think that they would be around bait balls. This has not been the case for us this season at all. I have found that it seems to be more current and wind conditions that dictate where we find active fish. I long ago got rid of my probe as I believe fish will leave temperature to feed and go back to it for comfort From this we can deduce that: 1. You know what the preferred temps are for comfort and for feeding. 2. Active fish are not around bait. 3. In spite of no probe you are able to determine current and wind effects. 4. Fish are not in normal areas so the lake variables are not normal and therefore are putting "ideal" conditions in other places! I have no reason whatsoever to doubt what you are saying! As a matter of fact you have given some great points that need to be reviewed to get in on some of your great action ... like what are those two temperatures? While Digitrol was completely right to seek the advice of Doc Mooney, I truly believe that both you and instigator have become the modern versions of the good doctor and built on his experience and base of knowledge and proved that, in fact, July is just another month in the Calendar that requires a different approach. There is simply no month of the year in which non-spawning kings are not feeding heavily. Yes, Kings run throughout the summer as, as I am sure Atlantics do ... for the preservation of the species. But peaks of spawning and numbers build like a normal distribution curve and then tail off. One of the factors that would really be interesting to hear about is what the young of the year of both smelt and alewives look like on your graphs. Probably, not detectable, unless the gain were cranked to maximum? ? No ... all the information is helpful and eventually the problem will be solved, but I don't think we are there yet!
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Post by MarknFish (Mark) on Jul 30, 2009 9:14:57 GMT -5
Awesome fish Rob! I'm very jealous but hopefully this weekend I'll be smiling like that!
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Post by An Bradon Charters on Jul 30, 2009 10:17:01 GMT -5
Jim, Normally the fish are around the bait and when you find bait you find fish. This year that has not been the case. I believe with the heavy rains and Strong winds there is much more currents. To me more current means more things moving through the water. Depending on the day which way the wind is blowing and understanding how currents work in the particular area you are fishing one can in fact as the good DR put it think like a fish. The fish are hanging on the edge of the current lines and and I believe waiting for the bait and such to come to them more often then they are chasing bait. Is this because they are lazy? Is it because the weather is so volatile that they like more security? Are they just adapting to the benifits of the weather? The only one i am sure of is they are not lazy. When we have more stable conditions the fish are stacked around the bait and move for the most part with them. I had to look back over years past worth of journal entries to keep me on the fish this year. The last time we had conditions such as this was two seasons ago. If I set my sonar to max sensitivity I can usually see the thermocline on the unit. As of late it seems to be around 60-70 feet.I do not know what the temp is there as i do not have a probe but i do know there is a temp break. I fish two riggers stacked usually 10 feet apart that allow me to work about a 20 foot water column. I also have information i collected over the years such as if the surface temp is below 67 try 35-50 feet etc. Working a 20 foot column of water when fishing in 70-130 feet does not take to long to find the active fish. As to the question about what do the yearling bait fish look like on the sonar? Once again you have me scratching my head and wondering myself. I can tell the difference between smelt/alewives and perch schools. With commanders information the questions you raised and I am sure others experiences on this subject it is a wealth of information that we all will be able to benefit from. Capt. Tony www.anbradoncharters.com
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Post by lazybones on Jul 30, 2009 11:32:04 GMT -5
Great stuff.
Thank you!
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Post by tamiron on Jul 30, 2009 22:22:41 GMT -5
Capt:
I'd trade a probe any day for you, your notes and your experience! There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that your thought processes are the operative requirement in learning more about this fishery. All the electronics in the world, cannot replace these tools you have, but they are a critical substitute in your absence!
The bait the Atlantics were chasing in the Spring we knew about.
The bait they will be chasing in 6 weeks we also know about.
It's the in-between that we are still struggling with.
Many times while bass fishing ( small mouth ), as you got the fish near the boat you would see regurgitation occur as the fight wears down. I wonder if the clean stomachs and warm water are combined with this process so that you see so little in their stomach?
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Post by brian on Jul 30, 2009 22:32:36 GMT -5
Jim, Normally the fish are around the bait and when you find bait you find fish. This year that has not been the case. I believe with the heavy rains and Strong winds there is much more currents. To me more current means more things moving through the water. Depending on the day which way the wind is blowing and understanding how currents work in the particular area you are fishing one can in fact as the good DR put it think like a fish. The fish are hanging on the edge of the current lines and and I believe waiting for the bait and such to come to them more often then they are chasing bait. Is this because they are lazy? Is it because the weather is so volatile that they like more security? Are they just adapting to the benifits of the weather? The only one i am sure of is they are not lazy. When we have more stable conditions the fish are stacked around the bait and move for the most part with them. I had to look back over years past worth of journal entries to keep me on the fish this year. The last time we had conditions such as this was two seasons ago. If I set my sonar to max sensitivity I can usually see the thermocline on the unit. As of late it seems to be around 60-70 feet.I do not know what the temp is there as i do not have a probe but i do know there is a temp break. I fish two riggers stacked usually 10 feet apart that allow me to work about a 20 foot water column. I also have information i collected over the years such as if the surface temp is below 67 try 35-50 feet etc. Working a 20 foot column of water when fishing in 70-130 feet does not take to long to find the active fish. As to the question about what do the yearling bait fish look like on the sonar? Once again you have me scratching my head and wondering myself. I can tell the difference between smelt/alewives and perch schools. With commanders information the questions you raised and I am sure others experiences on this subject it is a wealth of information that we all will be able to benefit from. Capt. Tony www.anbradoncharters.com Fascinating. There is no substitute for time on the water. Keeping a journal is a great tool.
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Post by An Bradon Charters on Jul 30, 2009 23:09:43 GMT -5
Jim, As usual you bring up great questions that get us all thinking. That is what will make us all better fisherman. I have found the bait. But the part i am trying to hammer out is why I am not catching my fish on and around the bait as I do in a normal weather pattern season? My thinking as of late as I said before is the current issue. Much more currents due to rain and wind make me think the fish go into a different mode. They wait for the bait to come to them rather then chase it? At least that is what it appears to be. If that was the case it would be logical to see less in there stomachs. I also think Commander brought up some very good information. Having his take on it as he fishes these guys when they are the most difficult to catch is a great asset to the rest of us. As far as the regurgitating I have not seen that with Salmon. Although sometimes when they are in the boat or cooler they regurgitate bait sometimes. I think I will keep fishing and trying to figure it out. I am sure with all the great people here we will come up with the answers . Capt. Tony www.anbradoncharters.com
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Post by MarknFish (Mark) on Jul 31, 2009 6:25:05 GMT -5
Capt,/Commander - I think you both bring up some great points here. The 4lb male I caught two weeks ago also had started the transformation to spawn although the jaw and colors were not as developed as this fish. I think we're spot on in our theories about fish movements this year as there are too many years of experience on this forum to dispute it. Everything in nature happens for a reason and these fish are no different. Though salmon are built for speed and travel, in strong current it comes down to how much energy will need to be expended to outweigh the gains derived from a meal. Obviously, if they have to chase every meal and expend tons of energy to derive a minimal nutritional gain, it's not worth it. I think they say, "lets set up on a seam and let the water bring food to me". It will be interesting to test this theory if we see a few weeks of steady weather and winds and find out if the fish end up back around the bait.....? This is absolutely awesome stuff to talk about!
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Post by voyager on Jul 31, 2009 21:47:45 GMT -5
Thorny - that is quite a fish you caught there, very nicely done. Thanks for the report and pictures. It has inspired what has become a very interesting thread. While I may not always have much more to add, I really enjoy everyone chipping in their ideas. In the end it helps us all to be better fishermen.
I think that Capt. Tony summed it for me: "I think I will keep fishing and trying to figure it out."
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Post by Thorny (Rob) on Aug 1, 2009 6:00:23 GMT -5
Great thread guys. Awesome feedback. Your observations and opinions really help us all to learn more about the fishery. In my last couple of successful trips on the Inland Sea, I believe the secret to catching fish is finding bait. Not just a little here and there but a good stretch with some consistent marks. The hits don't always come when you are in the bait. You find and area that holds bait and work it thoroughly. I think that a lot of my better fish come from outside the bait balls. These bigger fish keep the bait moving. Weather they are actively slashing through it or digesting a meal and waiting for the next opportunity. When you find good concentrations of bait you generally find good fish to go with them. Getting them to strike what you are running might be another story. Bait fish has not been easy to find this year on the Sea. I have seen some good concentrations in the last month. Thanks again for the great feedback! THINK LIKE A FISH Thorny
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Post by dragnballs(Kevin) on Aug 1, 2009 10:04:32 GMT -5
Rob, what a pig!!!! thanks for the look at him and the report. I trust that you were running your in the area that has been producing for you? Kevin
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Post by An Bradon Charters on Aug 2, 2009 12:11:45 GMT -5
Great thread guys. Awesome feedback. Your observations and opinions really help us all to learn more about the fishery. In my last couple of successful trips on the Inland Sea, I believe the secret to catching fish is finding bait. Not just a little here and there but a good stretch with some consistent marks. The hits don't always come when you are in the bait. You find and area that holds bait and work it thoroughly. I think that a lot of my better fish come from outside the bait balls. These bigger fish keep the bait moving. Weather they are actively slashing through it or digesting a meal and waiting for the next opportunity. When you find good concentrations of bait you generally find good fish to go with them. Getting them to strike what you are running might be another story. Bait fish has not been easy to find this year on the Sea. I have seen some good concentrations in the last month. Thanks again for the great feedback! THINK LIKE A FISH Thorny Rob, Very interesting hearing what has been working for you. I agree that usually when you find bait you find fish in that vicinity. I also agree that earlier this spring bait was hard to find. I also agree that in the past month bait seems to be more abundant. But for us we are getting more fish no where near bait. Depending on the day and what the wind is doing we are getting them in different areas. I know we fish many of the same areas on the sea. I also think we use some similar techniques. Now I am wondering why you are having success around bait and I am having success away from it? Looking back it seems the last time we had these conditions was 2 years ago. As you said if we all keep throwing in our experiences we will become better fisherman. Lets keep it going. Capt. Tony www.anbradoncharters.com
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